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Handheld Game ROM Dumping and Emulation
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Rik
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Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Last Visit: 25 Mar 2024
Posts: 1932
Location: California

PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blanka wrote:
Rik wrote:
Donkey Kong was designed and programmed entirely in house by Coleco in California.


After you told us about your meet, I contacted her and asked a bit further, and she told they did program a prototype, but the translation to 4-bit machine code was done by a Japanese partner.


Yeah, they probably weren't coding directly to the chips being used... But the point I was making was that Coleco designed the layout and game play. So Gakken didn't have any rights to the game play to make their versions. Coleco held on to the copyright of their code for all their home versions of Donkey Kong very closely.

Frogger I don't think they even touched, just used an existing game.

The others may have been modified (or the Coleco versions were modified by Gakken later). I think Gakken had a lot more to do with the full game design on many of the others.

But Donkey Kong was entirely Coleco's. Gakken had nothing to do with the design of it or the game play. But they did do the circuit layout and such...
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Rik
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Location: California

PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the Frogger 'guts' pics:
Circuit Board front:
http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Z_Imgs/Forum/Coleco-FroggerGuts1.jpg
Circuit Board back:
http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Z_Imgs/Forum/Coleco-FroggerGuts2.jpg
CPU:
http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Z_Imgs/Forum/Coleco-FroggerCPU.jpg

And it does look like the Tsukuda Pachinko is a TI chip...
There's two: an M95041 and a smaller TMS1024NL
Not too familiar with those...
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blanka
Atari Cosmos


Joined: 14 Dec 2010
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Location: Eindhoven, the Netherlands

PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The hardware design looks similar to the Great Escape/Dracula games.
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Rik
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I think he mentioned that he though Dracula was the same... I thought I had one easily accessible to take apart, but couldn't find it. But it makes sense since they are all Tsukuda games...
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kevtris
Coleco Pac Man


Joined: 07 Feb 2015
Last Visit: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 34
Location: Indianapolis, IN

PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rik wrote:
Here's the Frogger 'guts' pics:


Cool thanks much! I looked up the CPU and it seems it too might have a test pin on it as well. They call it CVSS and say you have to connect it to VSS but do not explain anything else about what it does. It's also on pin 20 like on the other two CPUs.... hmmmmm.

I looked around and cannot find any chips for sale except for $47 each from some random Sony equipment which might not even be in stock.

Fortunately, the data sheet for the chip is really good, with complete opcode bit patterns and pinout and all that. The part on Frogger is a 2K*9 mask ROM 4 bit CPU.

I find it amusing that the D552/3 is 8 bits, the frogger CPU is 9 bits, and the HD38800 is 10 bits, and all three are 2K words.

Still haven't been able to find a frogger cheap, they go for $50+ on ebay so it will be awhile before I can get one probably.

And yeah the "The Dracula" is indeed a TI part also.
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kevtris
Coleco Pac Man


Joined: 07 Feb 2015
Last Visit: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 34
Location: Indianapolis, IN

PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I got a couple new games today from the 'bay (I was gone on vacation a week. checked for games at the flea markets in Arizona but all I found was a single generic LED football game for $25 which I passed on).


Three coleco tabletops in some badish condition which yielded TWO versions of Pac-Man. One Pac-Man has an HD38820A28 and the other has an HD38820A29. The two VFDs look identical.

Also got a Donkey Kong which has a different VFD from the other DK I got when I was in middle school (PCB only from a friend). This one appears older.

Then a Mattel World CHampionship Football which is the most horrible pile of crap I have seen inside. There's TWO VFDs and TWO circuit boards in there! The CPUs are some rockwell chip which I found a full data sheet on, and it has a TEST pin so I will poke at that some time.

And a Tron which has an HD38800A88 which we already knew, but this is the latest mask # I have seen so it must've been pretty late. The VFD also has finer pitch leads too.

There's a couple other games I received too but nothing too special (packri monster... weird-ass construction, bambino basketball, tomy pac-man).

I have pulled all the VFDs and CPUs and took pictures of them so I will dump those tonight except the Rockwell ones and the HD38820's which I am waiting on an adapter.

The basketball has an HD38750 which should theoretically be dumpable with the existing rig. I was going to give it a shot and see if it worked or if I have to retool or use the bank tree follower code on it to try and find the test code and stuff.
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Rik
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, post a pic of the two DK VFDs... I'm curious about the differences on those...

If these games stay in working condition when you are done, and you don't want them, let me know... Especially with the variations you are documenting, it'd be nice to have an archived collection of the physical games.

You can have the Frogger I photographed if you want to play with it... Let me make sure it works (unless you don't care about that), and I can send it to you. It's not complete, and just sitting in a pile of Coleco 'junk'. Smile I've got several Pac-Mans in there too, so I need to check them for CPU and board versions... I know I have the A28 and A29 chips, I'll see if I find any others.

Is there any hope for the Pachinko game at this point? I don't want to sacrifice it for decapping unless I can get another one (assuming that would even help...)

I have a few other games in the 'not sure if they work' pile... Grandstand Star Force, Tandy Cosmic Fire-Away 2000 and a few others (need to look), I can loan all those to you if you want. Several of the Select-a-Game carts too if those are still needed for dumping. I think you can peel back the sticker easily enough to open them without too much damage...
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kevtris
Coleco Pac Man


Joined: 07 Feb 2015
Last Visit: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 34
Location: Indianapolis, IN

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rik wrote:
Oh, post a pic of the two DK VFDs... I'm curious about the differences on those...


OK will do. I removed the original VFD from the DK board about 10 years ago and put it on some perf board with VFD drivers but never got around to writing a game to drive it. That VFD's construction is a single glass envelope with the grids internally connected instead of coming out the sides like usual.

i.e. the grids are glued down to the bottom glass inside the envelope and the connections come out on the glass bottom and there's pins that slip onto the edge of the glass, then they drizzled epoxy all over them to keep them put.

This is a bit different than usual, and the VFD's internal circuit layout is different too, though I suspect the pinout is the same, it's just a different vendor or something.

The DK VFD is still the winner for largest of all the games I have opened so far. It's larger than the other Coleco tabletops and isn't the same size like I initially thought.

Oh that's weird. Just checked the two VFDs side by size (DK ones) and they are significantly different. I figured they'd be the same. While the elements inside are pretty similar they are laid out a bit different. I will try to get a picture of that tonight side by side.

Quote:

If these games stay in working condition when you are done, and you don't want them, let me know... Especially with the variations you are documenting, it'd be nice to have an archived collection of the physical games.


All of them will be in better condition when I'm done than when I got them. Most of them were dirty and many didn't work due to dumb problems (wires, switches mainly). The DK didn't work because there was a hairline fracture of the solder around the diode going to the start/jump button so you couldn't start a game. It looks like a manufacturing defect. Resoldered that and it works fine.

You would never know they had a little adventure with a screwdriver and desoldering gun after I get done.

Quote:

You can have the Frogger I photographed if you want to play with it... Let me make sure it works (unless you don't care about that), and I can send it to you. It's not complete, and just sitting in a pile of Coleco 'junk'. Smile I've got several Pac-Mans in there too, so I need to check them for CPU and board versions... I know I have the A28 and A29 chips, I'll see if I find any others.


Cool, yeah I'd like that. Got a qbert and a Ms Pac you'd let go cheap? I don't mind paying for them if it's reasonable. I just can't quite get to the "ebay" level pricing Smile They don't have to be perfect, since I will probably eventually get another on ebay cheap and probably frankenstein two of them to make a good one. I eventually would like a complete set of the Coleco games, Zaxxon, and Qbert I think.

As for pac-man, let's see. I have three of them here.

* PCB: 75690, no rev. CPU: A28 (white phenolic)
* PCB: 75715, rev C CPU: A29 (brown phenolic)
* PCB: 75690, no rev. CPU: A29 (brown phenolic)

For only making these for what, 2 years, there sure is a huge amount of revisions and changes which is kind of surprising. Oh yeah, on the A28 model, the VFD filter was put on the display with two strips of double stick which had adhesive that turned to dust, so I could remove it (well it fell off). the other two, the VFD filter is more like a sticker and I of course didn't remove them. Otherwise all three VFDs seem to be the same.

Quote:

Is there any hope for the Pachinko game at this point? I don't want to sacrifice it for decapping unless I can get another one (assuming that would even help...)


There might be, I was going to try to hit the TMS stuff again after awhile, when I get a better die shot. There's got to be SOME way to extract the ROM from it without damaging it. I would try it on some other chips first instead of something "good" like your game.

I have a few other games in the 'not sure if they work' pile... Grandstand Star Force, Tandy Cosmic Fire-Away 2000 and a few others (need to look), I can loan all those to you if you want. Several of the Select-a-Game carts too if those are still needed for dumping. I think you can peel back the sticker easily enough to open them without too much damage...[/quote]

Yeah the first few I'd buy off you if the price was right. As for the select a game carts I can dump those and return. You said those were HD38800/20 right?

small update: I dumped several CPUs last night, and got stuck on the HD38750 because it's slightly different than the 38800. I extracted its factory test code which is different, and should be able to modify my test rig's code to dump those too. Guessing the HD38820's factory test code is going to be identical to the 38800's so I am not worrying too much about that.
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blanka
Atari Cosmos


Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Last Visit: 13 Oct 2022
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Location: Eindhoven, the Netherlands

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kevtris wrote:
Fortunately, the data sheet for the chip is really good, with complete opcode bit patterns and pinout and all that. The part on Frogger is a 2K*9 mask ROM 4 bit CPU.


This is what I got out of the Frogger optically:


That extra bit on the words is in the top 2 rows. You can see the information density is much less dense there.
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kevtris
Coleco Pac Man


Joined: 07 Feb 2015
Last Visit: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 34
Location: Indianapolis, IN

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blanka wrote:
kevtris wrote:
Fortunately, the data sheet for the chip is really good, with complete opcode bit patterns and pinout and all that. The part on Frogger is a 2K*9 mask ROM 4 bit CPU.


This is what I got out of the Frogger optically:


That extra bit on the words is in the top 2 rows. You can see the information density is much less dense there.


Yeah that's pretty much the jump/call bit for the most part I suspect, like on the TMS1xxx. If you want to see what the opcodes/pinout/etc are, it's here:

http://bitsavers.informatik.un.....hi_LSI.pdf

Update: Donkey Kong vectored, took pics of stuff and finally got HD38750 to dump. The test code's different (not surprising) and stuff's in different parts of memory (also not surprising). So that's another chip I can dump.

I have 5 HD38820's waiting to be dumped when I get my adapters in which should be soonish. hopefully.
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kevtris
Coleco Pac Man


Joined: 07 Feb 2015
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Location: Indianapolis, IN

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have posted another big update to my /handhelds/ directory on my web page. I have edited the first post of the thread to reflect the current status of my dumping project.

We're working on getting the programming manual for the HD38xxx parts scanned, so that should be done soon I think. After that, it won't be too hard to get these into MESS!

I have pretty much finished up all the work now on the games I have here, and after they are emulated I will start putting them back together. I just want to make sure the ROM dumps are good before I reassemble them.

Still looking for a Frogger to work on. They keep going for obnoxious prices on ebay so I haven't bought one. For as common as it is you'd think it'd be cheaper. There's 10+ up right now.
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kevtris
Coleco Pac Man


Joined: 07 Feb 2015
Last Visit: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 34
Location: Indianapolis, IN

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well HD38820 dumping is possible now! The adapters came and they work.

I dumped both versions of Coleco Pac-Man (A28 and A29). There's 50 or so instructions different between the two versions. I am not sure what the difference is yet, I just looked around the asm files and saw most of the changes were near the reset code.

The asm files and binaries are sitting in the /Coleco Pac-Man/ directory if anyone wanted to poke around in there.

This means I can finish dumping the CPUs from my games and it opens up yet more games for dumping.

Adapter pics:

http://blog.kevtris.org/blogfiles/Handhelds/HD38820%20Adapter%201.jpg

http://blog.kevtris.org/blogfi.....Dumper.jpg

And the dumper with all the modifications I have had to do up to this point to get it to work:

http://blog.kevtris.org/blogfiles/Handhelds/HD388xx%20Dumping%20Rig%202.jpg
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Rik
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you have to solder the 38820 on each time you want to dump one? They make ZIF sockets for those, don't they? Smile
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Rik
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just had to look at a game I'd love to see emulated:
http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Bandai/MachineMan.htm

It's a neat little game, but pretty rare... It just so happens that I have a 'spare' one (a loose one I play with), and I'm willing to loan this out. It's an HD38820A85, so it should be doable... And it'd be a good test of your VFD vectoring skills... Smile (What do you use to do that, anyway?)

I can also loan:
Bandai Burgertime
Bandai Dokodemo Dorayaki Doraemon
Bandai Pair Match
Bandai Pengo
Bandai Zaxxon
All the Coleco tabletops you don't have (Ms Pac, Frogger, Zaxxon)
Entex Crazy Climber
Entex Select-a-Game and some of the carts (maybe all...)
Entex Spiders
Gakken Dig Dug
Gakken Fitter
Parker Bros Q*Bert

These are all the games I have in my 'take to conventions to let people play with' bin and thus are easy to get to. Cool

PM me your address, and I'll get some on their way...
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kevtris
Coleco Pac Man


Joined: 07 Feb 2015
Last Visit: 13 Oct 2015
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Location: Indianapolis, IN

PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rik wrote:
Just had to look at a game I'd love to see emulated:
http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Bandai/MachineMan.htm

It's a neat little game, but pretty rare... It just so happens that I have a 'spare' one (a loose one I play with), and I'm willing to loan this out. It's an HD38820A85, so it should be doable... And it'd be a good test of your VFD vectoring skills... Smile (What do you use to do that, anyway?)



Hmm that looks pretty cool, sure I'd like to do it. I am using inkscape to do it. I take a picture of the VFD with all the segments lit then trace and copy to generate the graphics. Yes I have to solder the CPU to the carrier to dump it. This isn't too bad though, desoldering/soldering the QFPs is quite easy and fast.

I would buy a socket if I could get one. I looked. The QFP is hard because it has a 1mm pitch. This is coarser than anything else on the market pretty much, which is .8mm. I actually had a 64 pin 1mm QFP ZIF here but unfortunately it's a 16*16 pin one and these chips are a weird shape (11*17 pins). There's no way to modify the socket either... I thought about doing that too. The adapters are the easiest way for now.

Quote:


I can also loan:
Bandai Burgertime
Bandai Dokodemo Dorayaki Doraemon
Bandai Pair Match
Bandai Pengo
Bandai Zaxxon
All the Coleco tabletops you don't have (Ms Pac, Frogger, Zaxxon)
Entex Crazy Climber
Entex Select-a-Game and some of the carts (maybe all...)
Entex Spiders
Gakken Dig Dug
Gakken Fitter
Parker Bros Q*Bert

These are all the games I have in my 'take to conventions to let people play with' bin and thus are easy to get to. Cool

PM me your address, and I'll get some on their way...


Sounds awesome to me. thanks much! For reference I now have several of those:

qbert, ms pac-man... is zackman the same as gakken dig dug? If so I have that. The others I don't have.
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